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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
239
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Posted - 2013.10.03 12:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hmm.
I'm in favor of increasing survivability instead of increasing ANYTHING RELATED TO ELECTRONIC WARFARE. The Hyena would be an exception.
note: the Keres, Kitsune and Sentinel have always worked well and do NOT really much done.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
240
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Posted - 2013.10.03 21:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Honestly I have no idea why players are suggesting a Sentinel and Keres can be exploded by a battleship so easily.
When I've rocked the aforementioned ships I tend to be able to lock down most direct combat ships above destroyers. The Keres and Sentinel have always been the most useful in fleets and survivable. Both ships can be armored or shield tanked.
Example:
[Keres, K]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Overdrive Injector System II
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, EMP S
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Warrior II x1
As I've said. The Keres and or Sentinel can lock down at least one ship. Often you'll only have to deal with removing said ships drones. THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE IS TO MAKE THE SLIGHTLY MORE SURVIVABLE.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
241
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Posted - 2013.10.04 01:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'm not a fan of the current changes being implemented. Those in this thread and others or in the past. One my my biggest issues is what I see as OVERLAP. Examples of overlap are as follows: Caracal/Bellicose, Myrmidon/Prophecy, Typhoon/Raven, Drake/Cyclone, and Dominix/Armageddon ETC.
In some cases Amarr drone ships are superior to Gallente ones and some Minmatar missile ships are as good or better than caldari ships of the same class. These ships DO THE SAME THING.
Anyway.
Here's an obvious but serious question. Why do electronic attack frigates have bonuses to multiple electronic warfare bonuses just like Recons? Shouldn't they have less capability? Not to mention the issue of OVERLAP between the 2 classes of ships?
In my opinion the electronic attack frigates should excel at one form of offensive electronic warfare module. For example:
- only bonuses for energy vampire and energy neutralizer on the Sentinel.
- only bonuses warp disruptor range on the Keres
- only bonuses stasis webifier range on the Hyena
- Kitsune does it thing.
and so on... There's no need for a bonus to tracking disruptors and remote sensor dampeners because they're already REALLY effective.
From this point on I'd just give them all resistance bonuses to add to survivability. I'd also limit their overall velocities to just under 2000 m/sec. None of these ships should be really fast in my opinion. These ships should focus mainly on Defense and their electronic warfare almost ignore damage all together.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
242
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Posted - 2013.10.04 12:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kagura Nikon
Provided a Keres can lock a dominix or Armageddon before being locked. Drones will not agress the Keres. Arguments can be made that the Dominix or Armageddon would drop drones first. No doubt that would be wise. However, provided the Keres can destroy a single flight of drones. The aforementioned would still occur. NO damage being applied to the Keres and the Keres holding said ships indefinitely.
A Keres is able to "point" something @ 36,000m without overheating. 2 Dampers applied to an Armageddon or Dominix will lower their locking range to around 18,000m
Anyway.
Like I stated before. The Keres, Kitsune, and Sentinel are capable of removing damage of or holding MOST ships on grid INDEFINITELY.
On another note. I agree with what someone else suggested. I brought up the idea that electronic attack frigates overall velocity should be reduced. All of them should not exceed 2000 m/sec. I also wanted to increase their survivability to give others something be happy about but maybe they SHOULD be EVEN less survivable like ShahFluffers suggested.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
242
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Posted - 2013.10.04 14:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:[quote=Major Killz]Kagura Nikon
Slower than a cruiser would make them USELES.
The infinite lockdown already exists.. a current keres can already hold a BC forever. How many times you seen that happen?
I'm not sure if you're agreeing by attempting to repeat what I was stating or trying to refute whatever.
To be clear. Tracking Disruptors and Sensor Dampeners are effective irrespective of bonuses. Which is and has been a problem for awhile now. I'm also against what I see as "OVERLAP". A ship or classes of ships doing the EXACT SAME THING.
As far as the Velocity of a support ship being low relative to cruisers. What of it? That's what fitting overdrive and nanofibers is for. I have in fact used the Keres and Sentinel. One in fleets and the other solo. So yeah I'm fairly sure I can hold certain ships indefinitely or remove their ability to project damage significantly.
I WANT DAMPERS AND TRACKING DISRUPTORS NERFED HARD. I'm not in favor of putting another ship or class of ship out there to abuse said mechanics.
Anyway.
There have been suggestions a Keres or Sentinel would explode if 1 single battleship. Clearly that's not the case. Things will be an issue in scaled engagements with multiple opponents but recons have that same issue. Especially if they're not supported by logistics.
Some other dude suggested high signature was the reason he didn't use a electronic attack frigate. So I'm assuming you'd like an interceptor/assault like bonus to electronic attack frigates? So why fly an interceptor tat that point? For what immunity to warp disruption bubbles? In an actual engagements I'd rather have the long warp disruptor (36,000m) and offensive electronic warfare (remote sensor dampeners). It would literally do a lot more for the fleet than an interceptor would.
Also in scaled engagements there tend to be support ships. Loki's, Proteus, Rapiers and or Arazu's. Interceptors tend to explode a lot in scaled engagements PERIOD. Even though they have low signatures. It's hard to reduce incoming damage from multiple directions. Some ships are going to hit you.
So, the point is ALL FRIGATES HAVE ISSUES IN SCALED ENGAGEMENTS WITH REGARD TO SURVIVABILITY IRReSPECTIVE OF BONUSES TO SHIP SIGNATURE.
Anyway. I've already said what I wanted to say and I'm just repeating myself. Moving on and I'll just continue to read other players opinions in this thread.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
250
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Posted - 2013.10.08 13:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:
EDIT: Actually, did you just use "Its overpowered so noone will fight it" As an arguement for the balance being ok? O.o
He did.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
251
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Posted - 2013.10.09 01:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'm for removing the Sentinels drones ALL TOGETHER. in fact there electronic warfare ships should be focused ONLY on support and DO NO DAMAGE AT ALL. NO drones and NO turret or Missile hardpoints.
F*cking electronic warfare is becoming a pandemic = )
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
251
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Posted - 2013.10.09 02:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Would you move high slots around or just have..... 2-3 high slots for the hyena, keres, kitsune?
Rearranging slots would in fact benefit these ships. For example leaving all electronic attack ships with 1 - 2 high slots. Moving 1 or 2 high slots to mid or low. Which would help overall velocity or tank.
You know, slot rearrangement is clearly the safest way to improve or NERF a ship or class of ship. Truly empowering the players by leaving innovation to THEM and BOOSTING the level customization (adding to the sandbox). Instead of relying on some poorly run team with terrible ideas v0v
Does a Sentinel need more tank? Give it one more low or mid slot and remove 1 high slot. Do you want to NERF the Drake? Remove 2 low or 2 high slots.
Is there a need to mess around with bonuses, ship velocity, shield or armor amount, and agility? No! Just allow the players to use another module to ADJUST what they DO NOT LIKE.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
253
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Posted - 2013.10.09 14:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alright you win !
Yesterday spent some time talking internally and I think I'm going to make some tweaks to tone them down a little. Not sure exactly what the numbers will be yet and I'm not in the office today but I'll post here letting you know when we work something out.
Thanks for the help
GF
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
253
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Posted - 2013.10.10 01:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
There are serious imbalances that NEED to be addressed IMMEDIATELY THAT AFFECT ELECTRONIC ATTACK FRIGATES.
1. Strategic Cruisers + warfare-links + Covert Ops Cloak and Command Processors COMBINED IS A SERIOUS ISSUE. CCP could fix this issue easily by REMOVING the "Warfare Processor" subsystems. I and others CLEARLY prefer a cloaked-command ship.
2. Electronic warfare modules are also a SERIOUS ISSUE. I know pilots have been complaining about ECM for years. However, that was mainly due to widespread use, effectiveness and range. Tracking disruptors have ALWAYS been VERY EFFECTIVE to but were used less. Remote sensor dampeners were also effective but were used EVEN LESS. Well! Things have changed since CCP increased sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors effectiveness. NOW, Tracking disruptors and Remote Sensor dampeners seem to be on EVERY SHIP these days. Un-bonused these modules are as effective as a ship bonused for their use.
Note: there's also an interesting phenomenon in game that happens when ANY MODULE, AMMUNITION OR SHIP IS BOOSTED. Players immediately show, instant and remarkable interest. Which leads to widespread use in a module or mechanic that was largely ignored. Irrespective of the level change; even minute at least for awhile; untill the most effective become persistent.
3. Tech 1 cruisers and frigates are imbalanced. Most tech 1 cruisers can match or out pace tech 2 cruisers and MOST FRIGATES. Tech 1 cruisers should never outpace destroyers... Tech 1 frigates are as good or better than Interceptors; tech 1 electronic warfare frigates are as good or better than Electronic Attack Frigates. Not to mention Widespread use of tech 1 logistics (not many agree with this one at all).
Conclusion
So, this is the lens I look thru when considering these changes.
Electronic attack frigates ARE GOOD SHIPS (except the Hyena). There's just cheaper options that produce similar outcomes. Also, I'm not a fan of increasing the effectiveness of ECM, Remote sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors. However, I'm NOT AGAINST increasing neut range; warp disruptor and scrambler range and stasis webifier range. These are things that their tech 1 counterparts cannot reproduce. The Kitsune is fine as it is now. Removing their ability to apply damage is also something that will bring BALANCE TO THE FORCE. From there CCP CAN START REDUCING SIGNATURE RADIUS; lowering ship velocity and Increasing TANK.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
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Major Killz
La Fraternite
253
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Posted - 2013.10.10 20:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
I suppose a that's along the lines of what they should look like Harvey James. However, I'm not sure they should have resistance bonuses but bonuses to shield, armor and or hull amount would be ok v0v
Harder to abuse them that way.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
253
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 15:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Rise wrote:
I expect that those of you hoping to use these will be a little disappointed, while those of expecting to fight against them might not think this is enough. Hopefully that means we are fairly close to a good spot for them. Regardless, please let me know what you think.
I'm giving this latest iteration 0 points out of 10.
You what? I'm not sure it's possible for you to be happy.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
253
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I'll put the drone back on the Sentinel.
You roll over fairly easily don't you? Since you're a push over. I'd like 1 tournament frigate from each of the past 4 alliance tournaments.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
253
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Posted - 2013.10.11 16:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:Major Killz wrote:TrouserDeagle wrote:CCP Rise wrote:
I expect that those of you hoping to use these will be a little disappointed, while those of expecting to fight against them might not think this is enough. Hopefully that means we are fairly close to a good spot for them. Regardless, please let me know what you think.
I'm giving this latest iteration 0 points out of 10. You what? I'm not sure it's possible for you to be happy. The ecm and recon bonuses are still there.
I see..
Well I'm not fully satisfied with these changes but they are good. I still want the bonuses for remote sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors removed.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
256
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Posted - 2013.10.17 21:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Sister Sophia wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Keres: Signature radius: 43(-12) These changes are really going to complicate the small frig ecosystem in lowsec. And I think that's great. I'm looking forward to the challenge. But I'd say we'll need some new counter-moves to the inevitable gangs of EA frigs + cockbag thrashers sitting in plexes and on gates. To reiterate and modify an idea from earlier: Can we consider giving covops frigs a heavy missile option (in addition to the current torps)? They are very fragile and expensive. So I doubt they will be overused or overpowered. But at least with heavy missiles, they will have a chance either to snipe EA frigs if the pilot (or alt) is half asleep or to at least force them off the field for a while. I hope I'm calculating this correctly so please correct me if I'm wrong. But a Keres using its MWD should have a sig radius of 205m. Precision torps have an explosion radius of 405m. So they still won't be that useful against a Keres. On the other hand, heavy missiles, with their explosion radius of between 125 and 215m will still be effective. Even a rack of three won't be able to single-shot the EA frig. And that's perfectly fine. But they will pose a threat. At the very least the keres will be forced to redirect its ewar at the covops to cope. Of course, combat inties can quickly catch and kill a covops frig (heavy missiles or no). So the outcome, I think, should be a paper-scisors-rock game with pilot skill and situational awareness as the determining factor. I just wonder whether heavy missiles would make the covops too great a threat to cruiser-sized ships. Dunno. That's my suggestion for some balance anyway. They are called rapid missile launcher caracals... or rapid missile lanucher bellicoses. They can murder those frigs, at least enoguh to kill far more than their own cost before being subjugated.
Lol subjugated.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
Major Killz
La Fraternite
256
|
Posted - 2013.10.18 14:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Keres has always been one signature radius bonus from being a better Interceptor. Still, a Keres and Interceptors are not really good scaled engagements with a lot of ships with serious damage projection (Abaddon, Drake, Tengu, Caracal, Oracle, Talos, Zealot and so on). Generally it's best to just stay well out of engagement ranges with said ships. Something any frigate can do tbh.
Still, these ships are ONLY useful in smaller scale engagements. Even then if 2 or more ships can project damage like a Condor or Artillery-Thrasher or Railgun-Cormorant. Then most electronic attack frigate or Interceptor will explode in engagements 40,000m and lower.
The only counter to this may be to allow them to operate at 70,000m or more. Which could and will be abused. If CCP did that though then they would HAVE TO GIMP ELECTRONIC FRIGATES IN EVERYWHERE ELSE. No damage bonuses, low velocity, and tank.
- Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |
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